In episode 246, we explore the concept of interdependence in the context of recovery from betrayal trauma and porn addiction. Interdependence, often mentioned but not always fully understood, is a critical aspect of healing and moving forward in a relationship after the discovery of a partner’s addiction. Many betrayed spouses struggle with defining what interdependence looks and feels like, particularly as they navigate the complexities of their partner's ongoing recovery and behavior. Today, we’ll dive into what interdependence truly means and how it manifests in real-world scenarios, especially for those who have been deeply impacted by their spouse’s actions.

Our discussion centers around the journey of a betrayed spouse who has been married for over two decades and is actively working on her own recovery after discovering her husband’s sexual addiction. She shares her experience of wrestling with the pain of watching her husband’s behavior, such as scanning or getting captivated by other women, and how it feels intensely personal, even though she intellectually knows it’s not about her. This inner conflict highlights the struggle many face in separating their spouse’s actions from their self-worth, and how exhausting it can be to maintain a healthy mindset amidst these triggers.

We’ll also examine how interdependence can evolve over time, contrasting the early stages of recovery with later phases where individuals may experience greater emotional resilience and independence. The question is raised about whether, over time, triggers like a partner’s inappropriate behavior still impact those who are further along in their recovery. This conversation is not just about reframing mindsets but also about understanding how personal growth and healing can empower individuals, regardless of the outcome of their marriage. Join us as we unpack these challenging dynamics and provide insight into what interdependence can look like in healthy, recovering relationships.

• What IS “interdependence”/COLLABORATION? What does it “look like”?
• What does “independence/the Authentic Self” in recovery and healing look like for both partners?
  • For the recovering porn addict—
  • For the partner healing from betrayal trauma—
• What kinds of things can disrupt one’s independent recovery and healing paths?
  • For the recovering porn addict—
  • For the healing partner—
• How do “independent/authentic” partners progressively move into a place of “interdependence”?
  • Each must have a clear understanding of what it means to “own my side of the street”—to step into my voice, my truth, my sovereignty and my EMPOWERMENT and be WORKING IT!
  • Be VERY mindful of the EARLY signs you are leaving the realm of sovereign independence and entering back into sacrificing one’s Authentic Self and boundaries around that self.
• What are the PROGRESSIVE steps to traveling the path of interdependence and coupleship collaboration?
  • First and foremost it’s all about “What you bring with you” to the coupleship interaction! Self-care; outside support system; shame resilience work . . .
  • MUST agree to interrupt long-standing, emotionally intense/reactive relationships patterns! Establish CLEAR communication boundaries and TAKE A BREAK every time one or both go outside those boundaries (do NOT weaponize this!)
  • Don’t allow “reactive situations” to always be where you try to “work on healthy communication/collaboration.” Intentionally plan and practice hard topics—Journaling & Higher Power; Outside Support Systems; Couples Daily Check-ins: weekly Partnership meetings.
  • This is a process NOT a destination–be patient; give grace; don’t give up.

Visit www.daretoconnectnow.com

In Episode 245, Mark & Steve respond to an all–too–common, legitimate struggle faced by the betrayed partners of sex/porn addicts. Here's a submission from a partner—

My husband is starting a new position within his company where he will be working very closely with this woman. She is highly attractive, and the only female in the male dominated company they work in. He has admitted a few times that “_______” is beautiful, smart and is going to go far in the company. While I have never been concerned he’s going to cheat on me, with her or anyone else, I have a lot of mixed feelings about them working so close together. I’m scared that he is fantasizing about her, masturbating to her and lying to me about it. Like he has lied to me about everything else so far. I asked him bluntly and he laughed at me and told me that “he only has eyes for me—obviously, we’re married!” He has some pretty obvious “tells” when he is lying and I’m almost certain he is in this case. How can I, as the spouse, learn to (I guess) just be okay with it and trust that work relationships are just that, work relationships?

• A History of Lying and Betrayal trauma trigger MANY symptoms for a partner that are understandable, legitimate and CRAZY HARD!
  • “Like he has lied to me about everything else so far”
    • Hypervigilance, seeking for guarantees, feelings of competition/comparison, doubting her intuition/gut, exhausted by his gaslighting, etc
  • She has every right to be skeptical, guarded and suspicious.
  • “How can I, as the spouse, learn to (I guess) just be okay with it and trust that work relationships are just that, work relationships?”
    • You shouldn’t.
• These concerns need to be TRANSPARENTLY EXPLORED, THOUGHT OUT, and SHARED with him.
  • In whatever way/medium is safe for her.
  • He needs to access resources and/or skills (as needed) to be able to HEAR, PROCESS, CONNECT WITH, and VALIDATE her concerns in a vulnerable way.
    • Connecting with/utilizing a support group, therapist, sponsor, daily renewal partner, journaling, etc
    • This happens ideally not just in the moment (trigger management), but also is cultivated in advance (self-care routines)
• Situations like this point towards the “bigger issues” within the relationship
  • Lack of trust
  • Lack of safety
  • (potentially) lack of dialogue
  • Lack of collaboration
• For the partner, FINDING YOUR AUTHENTIC VOICE is something to grow in terms of skillset and practice:
  • Discovering the authentic self
  • Setting boundaries
  • Setting and holding consequences to preserve safety and authenticity
  • How can you “know” what he’s doing or not doing?
• How to begin addressing this as a coupleship—
  • Get comfortable with the uncomfortable
  • Practice via daily check-in’s
  • Couples therapy
  • Programs like D2C

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to: https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/my-porn-addicted-partner-has-adhd-he-insists-i-must-manage-his-recovery-for-him-to-succeed-is-this

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at: Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at: Reclaim Counseling Services

In Episode 244, Mark & Steve address the betrayed partner of a porn/sex addict who submitted the following to PBSE—

As a partner of an addict, what can I do to help my partner feel more supported during his recovery, so that he may feel more comfortable telling me the truth??? Time and time again, I have caught him in lies or omissions and it’s eating away at the trust in our relationship. Most recently, we engaged in physical intimacy and I could tell IMMEDIATELY that he had been looking at porn that day. I can’t explain it- I just knew. I felt used, like my body was simply a means to an end for him, like a masturbation device. So I asked my partner if he’d been hiding anything from me, and he came clean that he did in fact have some slips over the weekend. I have since made it clear, respectfully, that I do not wish to engage in intercourse while information about his sexual proclivities is being withheld from me. The main issue here is that during previous conversations, he has agreed to PROACTIVELY come to me when these slips happen so that I don’t have to play detective anymore… but he has never followed through with that agreement, and he continues to wait around until I ask the perfect question. After this incident, my partner told me that he doesn’t feel like he can come to me because I get really quiet when he talks about his slips and therefore I do not make him feel supported enough. If you have any suggestions or words of wisdom to share, I would greatly appreciate it so much.

For Her:

• Take the time to truly explore your feelings, wants, and needs, and then come up with boundaries and attached consequences for each.
• Vulnerably share these with your partner, in whatever way is safest.
• Ensure that you are practicing healthy communication skills:
  • When feeling anger or anger-related feelings (which are absolutely legitimate), be sure to express this in a way that also communicates the vulnerable primary emotions under the anger.
  • Avoid toxicity in your dialogue (name-calling, sarcasm, mind-reading, etc.) and stay true to what is "authentic" to you.
  • As safety allows, be very proactive in your expression of needs, as well as your thoughts and feelings. Hold FIRM boundaries and their accompanying consequences/outcomes.
  • Recognize that you can’t “make” anyone continue to feel or not feel anything. They choose which feelings to focus on and remain in.
  • SURRENDER THE REST. IT'S ON HIM.

For Him: An addict in sincere recovery will be making progressive efforts to:

• Practice true account-ability
  • At a BASELINE, this means telling the WHOLE truth at ALL costs!
  • Doing the hard work to not just share lapses/relapses, but to discover:
    • What led up to the lapse/relapse
    • What broke down on his end
    • What specific changes will he make in future encounters with triggers
• Sit in “Uncomfortable Places”
  • Why are you responding the way you do your partner's reactions?
  • How are you response-able for your actions & your responses?
  • In what ways are you growing in your capacity to practice uncomfortable ownership and account-ability?
• As Addicts, WE CAUSED THIS. We may not be responsible for all of the circumstances that got us here in totality, but we ARE AND ALWAYS WILL BE responsible for how we handle, show up for, and address "today."

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to: https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/is-it-my-responsibility-to-make-my-porn-addicted-partner-feel-comfortable-so-he-will-consistently-te

In Episode 243, Mark & Steve address a very important issue submitted to PBSE by a listener who is the betrayed partner of a porn/sex addict. This question especially resonated with Mark as he himself, along with a number of his children and many of his extended family, have suffered with the challenges of mental illness and related diagnosed issues like ADHD. Here's the submission by a PBSE listener—

My husband and I have been friends for close to 20 years, in a relationship for 7 years, and married for 3. He has been addicted to pornography for most of his life, close to 40 years. I started to suspect something a couple weeks before we got married, and he finally confessed his addiction about 6 months later. We now both have CSATs that work together as a team and we have been seeing them for about 18 months. My husband has been doing fairly well, or so I thought, but I have just found out he has been in a relapse for a couple of months. I am of course hurt and angry that he would go back down this road after all the work, time, and money that has been invested in his recovery. He very much wants to get back on track, but feels that I need to take a much larger role in his recovery. I should mention that my husband is diagnosed with ADHD. For this reason alone, he feels he needs me to essentially manage his recovery. If he has homework, sit down and do it with him. Set up our weekly check ins and give him reminders about them. Follow up that he has made therapy appointments, continually check in with him that he is not using porn etc. I do not want to have to manage all this for him. He feels that If I truly care and support him, I will understand that because of his ADHD, this is what he needs in order to be successful. I do know that it is not the wife’s place to do this typically. Is there ever a time, for instance when ADHD is present, that this could be a healthy, successful approach to both partners' recovery. Thank you so much.

• First of all, we have tremendous empathy for those challenged by ADHD.
• This is NOT an episode about the intricacies of ADHD and how it relates to addiction and recovery. We covered this topic in a very basic sense in Episode 210. This episode is about what it means to be truly PROACTIVE and LEAD OUT in one’s own recovery.
• Mental Illness and Addiction: One of the great challenges in our field is an issue of “What came first, the chicken or the egg?” Did mental illness, trauma, abuse and the like come first and lead to addiction or vice-versa? Mark can speak to this from personal experience . . .
• What was HORRENDOUSLY HARD for Mark was honestly and vulnerably facing what it means to “own MY side of the street/MY recovery.” What does it mean to “LEAD OUT” and be PROACTIVE? How do you balance this with realities, limited capacities, self-compassion, etc.?
• With mental illness, trauma, abuse and the like in the mix, there are more “moving parts” to recovery.
• What IS a reasonable expectation for an individual with both challenges—addiction and mental illness/trauma/abuse? What are the EDUCATION, RESOURCES & TOOLS in today’s world?
• Moving from “me” to “WE” and how to find the balance in the “addict’s side of the street” vs. the “partner’s side.”
• What does true “collaboration” look like as a coupleship?
• How does the betrayed partner of an addict balance her own self-care, betrayal trauma healing and boundaries in this whole process? How does she walk the delicate line of healthy support vs. enablement?

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to: https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/my-porn-addicted-partner-has-adhd-he-insists-i-must-manage-his-recovery-for-him-to-succeed-is-this

In this PBSE episode (#242), Mark & Steve respond to an incredibly vulnerable, painful submission by a PBSE listener. Her submission starts out with—

I was happy to have found your podcast after my partner’s reluctant disclosure last month. After experiencing what can only be described as one of the most intensely painful experiences of my life, I navigated my way to one of your episodes about betrayal trauma and it immediately eased my mind and provided me a much-needed sense of validation. I really thought my full mind and body breakdown was an unwarranted overreaction. A little bit of context before I ask my question . . .

She then describes how she was married for 8 years to an extremely abusive man who was addicted to drugs, alcohol and pornography. She finally had to end that relationship to protect herself and her children from further abuse and ongoing danger. Afters a number of years, she was courageous enough to "try again" and shares that she has been in a new relationship for the past 4 years with someone who has helped her understand what love truly is for the first time. He has been steadfast, reliable, kind and patient. From the outset, she made her stand on porn clear—that it has no place in a healthy relationship. He said that he had used it prior to their relationship, but had no need for it anymore. Then comes the bombshell that rocked her world! Here's how she describes it—

After returning from a three-day work conference last month, I sensed that he was less than eager to reconnect with me. I just had this intuitive, crushing feeling, so I asked him point blank if he had used pornography while I was away. He confessed, but very minimally, and he may have said more but I broke. Absolutely broke. I was flooded with despair. Not even a month after our marriage, I was faced with the terrible realization that I had made another huge mistake. That this was a complete stranger who had lied by omission countless times, and that I was once again in the position of being the “not good enough” wife. Despite his good intent and compassion, I wrestle with these and many more tormenting thoughts daily. I feel like life has pretty much stayed the same for him, while my whole world has been ripped apart. My question is this - he said that he has never liked this “need” within him, and that I could never understand because I am not a man. If this “need” is in every man, is there even a point in any woman EVER expecting their partner to be 100% faithful to them, spiritually, mentally, and physically? If my husband, an upstanding, moral, and loving individual, could betray me in this way and then chalk it up to the “essence” of man, then it doesn’t leave me with much (in fact, ANY) hope that I will ever be worth fidelity from him or anyone else. I would truly rather be on my own than deal with the incessant and intrusive thought that he will be forever seeking sexual gratification outside of our union. Your words and wisdom would be truly appreciated. Sincerely, One jaded, exhausted, and heartbroken wife.

In this episode, Mark & Steve speak from the heart to this blindsided and deeply betrayed partner. They help her understand her completely legitimate trauma and the flood of emotions she is experiencing. They talk about "his side of the street" with regard to her addict partner and what he can do going forward IF this relationship is to be saved. They also offer some insights and guidance to this betrayed partner and speak specifically to HOW she can STEP INTO HER POWER moving forward!

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to: https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/men-will-just-be-men-live-with-it-really

In Episode 241, Mark & Steve respond to a porn/sex addict in recovery who is facing an extremely difficult situation with his betrayed partner. Here's what he submitted through the PBSE contact form—

Hey, my wife is one of the .01% of wives who expects me to be absolutely perfect. I don’t know what to do? I’ve been focusing on being serene. Learning from every mistake I make. I’m 16 ish months sober. And in full recovery. Each step of the way, I’m reminded how I’m a screw up. That the score will never be even because I betrayed her, I took away her dreams, and because I’m an addict, I will never be the man she wants. Ever. That she is staying with me solely because she doesn’t want to miss time with our young son. Who we both love. She says I trapped her and she can’t leave and that she plans to stay until our son turns 18. Then leave and find a better man and have a new family. That her life is on pause until then. That I deserve to burn in hell for what I’ve done. I validate her pain. I do make mistakes and objectify her every so often and imply that I do find her “sexy” and I recognize my reasons of how my head got there and I work on those defects. I’m able to work through my shame in these moments and stay present and hear her pain. I just am at a loss of how to support her further. I feel I’m at loss and I’m committed to her. She is my only option and I love her. I never want to go back to life without recovery. I love my life and love the healing I’ve accomplished. I just don’t know how to help support her to get here as well so she can enjoy life again.

In this episode, Mark & Steve address this difficult and delicate situation:

• SO much empathy for the betrayed partner and for the addict in recovery!
• Where is the place of “empowerment” for both partners? Without this, they will just stay STUCK!
• There is NO timetable or checklist for a partner bearing the heavy burden of betrayal trauma! Where is she AUTHENTICALLY? Is it what he describes or something different?
• Is he TRULY practicing leading out; leaning in; being proactive; making amends; rebuilding trust, etc.?
• Is she tapping into her own support system; following a path of true healing, etc?
• This coupleship must seek for DIALOGUE and AUTHENTICITY! Each person in the relationship needs to do their individual work to truly determine what is ACTUALLY their authentic voice and what is coming from the "Unholy Triad"—Pride, Shame and Trauma—for the addict in recovery and for the partner in healing.
• After doing the ongoing work to determine TRUE AUTHENTICITY . . . THEN each can decide how to proceed forward—What is each individual’s VISION for the relationship? What is the willingness for and level of COMPATIBILITY?
• For the Partner:
  • Are you open to change on his part? If not, why? What is preventing this? Is that resistance AUTHENTIC, or something else? If so, what would that need to look like for it to resonate with you? If it does, are you open to change or growth in the relationship?What would that need to look like? If he is unwilling or unable to authentically make those changes, what is your “next right thing”?
• For the Addict:
  • Will this (your partner's vision) work for you? Is this compatible with the life (and vision) you are choosing to live? If not, what would need to change in order for it to be? If she is unwilling or unable to authentically make those changes, what is your "next right thing"

For a full transcript/article of this podcast, go to:
https://www.pbsepodcast.com/post/how-can-i-support-my-partner-who-i-betrayed-so-she-can-enjoy-life-again

In Episode 240, Mark and Steve address an important issue submitted by a male betrayed partner. Here's his submission—

How do male betrayed partners process betrayal trauma differently than women? What are the difficulties male partners have when trying to heal the relationship with their betrayer? Are there any differences in recovery and repair between male betrayed/female sex addict vs female betrayed/male sex addict? I have been attending 12 steps for codependents for sex addicts, and have only met one other man in my situation. Also, struggling to find any literature or resources on this topic.

Betrayal Trauma Defined: the emotional, financial and relational “bottom falling out”

• A traumatic paradigm shift from "what was" to "what is"
  • Healing takes on many components:
    • Reframing or repairing individual worth and value
    • Reframing or repairing attachment to the partner
    • Healing trauma and attachment issues
    • Rebuilding the capacity for trust in self and in others
    • Reframing and increased investment in self-care
    • Navigating shame issues
    • Handling triggers
• For both men and women, these are unavoidable facts and factors that must be addressed, regardless of sex.

Many of the differences between the healing tracks for men and women lies in the cultural differences present, which stem from:

• Family of Origin
• Gender Roles varying from culture to culture
• Religious/Spiritual Framework issues
• Existing, in-place support systems
• Societal norms for processing and expressing:
  • Grief
  • The need for help
  • Acceptance of support from others
  • Societal guidelines surrounding attachment

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at: Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at: Reclaim Counseling Services

This episode, # 239, is in response to a very common and very painful, frustrating and limiting situation submitted by the betrayed partner of a porn/sex addict—

My husband is currently in recovery, and I am unfortunately still in the depths of betrayal trauma. Unfortunately in the early discovery days (there have been 3 major ones over 20 years) I dug for the most amount of detail surrounding my husband’s outlets possible. At the time I did not know how damaging this would be for us both. I didn’t know gathering the details would cause further trauma to me. I found out that my husband has an ideal body type he has fixated on from early teenage years. It’s very specific and nothing like my body. Rationally I know that his porn of choice and women of choice have anything to do with me. I try my best to not see my difference in appearance to these fantasy women as shortcomings. HOWEVER, one of the biggest challenges we face in our relationship is that we have a mutual friend in our life, that is the wife of my husband’s best friend, who happens to match my husband's ideal fantasy body type. Every time we are around them I am hyper vigilant, watching his every move. I can’t relax and I don’t think he can either. It’s not fun for me to be around them anymore. I hate to even write this because they’re amazing people, the wife and I get along so well. Neither of them have done anything wrong towards me. We find ourselves in group settings often with them and the rest of our friends as well. So we never have a time where we hang out with friends without them there. I hate that I have feelings before the gathering hoping they’ll decide to stay home. I feel like a terrible person. I’ve also been so triggered that others have taken notice, and I have to brush it off and say things like I’m not feeling well. I feel like I cannot be authentic at all and I feel like I keep repeating d-day over and over again every time we are together. How can I be around this person, and separate what’s happened between my husband and I? Is it even possible? The wedge between my husband and I grows each time we hang out with them. I want to have fun with my husband again, I want to laugh with our friends, I don’t want to watch my husband, I want to enjoy life because our friends are such a huge part of it, but I don’t know how.

• First, let’s talk about “complex trauma/betrayal”—the unfairness of it; how it spills over into and impacts SO many aspects of a partner’s life; how the survival brain tries to cope . . . hyper-vigilance; personalization, etc—ALL legit!
• What can a betrayed partner in this very REAL situation, DO? Where is the EMPOWERMENT and PROACTIVITY?
• First, your feelings ARE legitimate! You’re in a relationship that you were led to believe would be faithful, loyal and exclusive. Through discovery/disclosure, you discovered that your porn/fantasy-addicted partner has a “favorite/preferred/ideal/” body type that does NOT match yours! Of course you REACT!
• Process & journal these feelings out; express them to your support system and when safe to do so, transparently express them to your addict partner—may need to be in writing first; then when safe, face-to-face—get it all out on the table.
• This is where you get to assess your willingness/abilities to come together as a TEAM to COLLABORATE! This takes INDIVIDUAL WORK FIRST—Addict: shame resilience/defensiveness/reactivity work; leading out, leaning in, empathy, etc; Betrayed Partner: sovereign, independent healing work. Be mindful of the “fallacy of fairness.”
• As a “team” NOTHING IS OFF THE TABLE! What will truly meet individual and coupleship authentic wants and needs going forward?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com