On Monday, Donald J Trump will be sworn in as president. Again. To help us understand the best-case scenarios and worst-case scenarios for his second term, Josh has invited two diametrically-opposed thinkers. Today, the pro-Trump case with Batya Ungar-Sargon. On Inauguration Day, the anti-Trump case with David Frum.

Batya is the deputy opinion editor of Newsweek and one of the most articulate pro-Trump voices in America. She has a PhD in English from the University of California, Berkeley, and promotes Trumpism from the "populist left". She has written two books, "Bad News: How Woke Media Is Undermining Democracy", and "Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women".

Today, Batya and Josh have a spirited debate about immigration, isolationism, NATO, the woke left, the working class, and Trump's political cronyism. It tells you a lot about our topsy-turvy politics that our pro-Trump guest is a former leftist and our anti-Trump guest is a conservative. Enjoy.

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