This is the most uncomfortable conversation Josh has ever recorded. He used to work for Alan Jones, the most powerful broadcaster in Australia. Now, he's been arrested on sexual assault allegations. (Alan, that is. Not Josh. Phew)

Sexual predation. Political power. Investigative journalism. Innocence until proven guilty. Josh has never spoken publicly about his own experiences while working with Alan Jones. Until now.

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Why do some civilisations enlighten while others languish? Why do some conquer, and others collapse? Was the British Empire a bloody stain... or, on balance, a force for modernity?

Niall is one of Britain's most prolific and influential historians. His seventeen books, including the groundbreaking tomes Civilisation and Empire, define the modern historical canon.

Niall has become associated with heterodox concerns about wokeness and Western decline. But Josh wanted to probe deeper: How should we think about Ukraine, Gaza, populism and the West, in light of what we know about what makes human societies thrive?

Josh and Niall sat down in Westminster, London, on the afternoon of the 2024 American presidential election -- before the result was known.

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It's crunch time for the Australian government's Orwellian-sounding "Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation" legislation.

The bill was passed last Thursday by Australia's House of Representatives and is currently stalled in the Senate. Right-wing populists are spreading hysteria that it would let the government throw you in jail for speaking your mind on social media.

The bill would not, in fact, punish you for posting on social media. But it could give government officials the power to make social media companies suppress opinions the Australian government deems "harmful".

Josh opposes giving such power to the state. By contrast, Professor Daniel Angus is broadly supportive of the bill. He's one of Australia's leading researchers into technology, social media, fake news and misinformation, and he advised the government on the legislation.

At this crucial moment, with only two weeks remaining before parliament shuts down for the year -- and as the Senate deliberates on this hugely important law -- please listen to this conversation and get informed. Wherever you are, enjoy this friendly clash of perspectives about algorithms and free speech on the web.

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