The COVID-19 crisis pushed churches to reimagine everything from Sunday worship to committee meetings, often thrusting them onto unfamiliar digital ground. Navigating livestreams, Zoom calls, and online communion, ministry leaders have had to ask: What does it mean to truly be the body of Christ in a hybrid or even fully online world?

In this episode, Michael Huerter, author of The Hybrid Congregation, talks about the theological and practical implications of digital ministry, how technology is shaping Christian community today, and what it looks like to do incarnational ministry in a time when “embodiment” often includes both physical and digital presence.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Michael Huerter identifies the technological revolution as a challenge that forces churches to quickly adapt, especially accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic.
• Churches adapted rapidly to online worship out of necessity, often improvising by streaming or recording services for the first time.
• Michael Huerter describes the struggle of clergy to reflect theologically about worship changes while managing weekly ministry demands.
• The shift to online ministry required pastors to find new ways to foster belonging and community amid isolation.
• Integrating online technology into church life raises theological questions but can also expand accessibility and connection.
• Michael Huerter explains that congregations faced difficult questions around sacraments, like communion, during virtual services and responded differently based on tradition.
• Worship communities discovered that virtual meetings, such as board meetings and Bible studies, created new conveniences and altered expectations for gathering together.
• Online ministry allows for broader participation, particularly for those unable to attend in person due to distance, weather, or health.
• Michael Huerter discusses the tension between the benefits of hybrid models and the losses in personal connection that come from shifting meetings and worship online.
• Participating in both physical and online ministry offers unique strengths and limitations in forming authentic community.
• The theological call to be incarnational does not require rejecting technology; rather, ministry can thoughtfully incorporate digital tools as part of discipleship.
• Michael Huerter pushes back against the idea that digital practices conflict with incarnational theology, highlighting historical uses of technology in church growth.
• Passive participation in online worship, such as listening to music or liturgy, still engages the body and spirit and remains spiritually meaningful.
• Michael Huerter urges pastors to approach technology with a people-first mindset, focusing on community needs rather than pursuing reach or production value for its own sake.
• Discernment, curiosity, and pastoral care are key for churches navigating ongoing technological changes and competing values in ministry.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Books mentioned:
  • The Hybrid Congregation, by Michael Huerter
• 131: Spiritual Leadership in the Digital Space, with Laura Murray

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Discover how stepping into discomfort and crossing borders—literal and metaphorical—can transform you and your leadership in ways you never imagined.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Seth Clark in Ep. 268, Borderless Faith:

“Somehow there is this thing happening at the border that I get to participate in, that is making a difference and reminding people of God's love and hopefully drawing them into God's love in a new way.”

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders grow when they lean into uncomfortable situations outside their comfort zones.
• People foster change by entering new spaces with curiosity and a learner’s mindset.
• Resistance offers leaders the opportunity to ask what others are trying to protect.
• Leaders build relationships when they come alongside those who push back.
• Ministry participants rediscover God’s love by engaging in boundary-crossing work.

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Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we’re dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what’s happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.

In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.
• Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."
• Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.
• Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.
• Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.
• Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.
• Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.
• Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.
• Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.
• Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).
• Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.
• Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.
• Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.
• Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.
• Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Audrey Davidheiser
  • Aim For Breakthrough website
• Books mentioned:
  • Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey Davidheiser
• Related Episodes:
  • 262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat
  • 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion

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Learn how keeping “the main thing the main thing” can transform your church’s mission, focus your decisions, and unite your community as one body in Christ.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Terry A. Smith in Ep. 266, The Church as Shalom Maker:

"I work so hard to make sure that we keep the main thing the main thing, that we don't get caught up in things that keep us from who we are supposed to be as one body in Christ."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders clarify the main purpose by engaging in candid conversations about mission.
• Churches discern their mission by identifying who they are called to reach and impact.
• Teams make decisions more effectively when their mission and values are clearly defined.
• Leaders recognize that clarity about core values prepares organizations for necessary change.
• Focusing on the main thing helps communities avoid distractions from their calling as one body in Christ.

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Bias isn’t always about the big, obvious issues. Sometimes it shows up in the subtle, everyday moments—like who we compliment, who we listen to, and how we respond to change. It’s part of being human, but as leaders, it’s our calling to become aware of those biases so we can lead with greater humility and clarity.

In this episode, Erin Devers, author of The Unbiased Self, shares the science behind bias, why it’s so hard to see in ourselves, and how anchoring our identity in Christ creates the freedom to lead—and live—in a much healthier and more effective way.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Bias is anything that prevents people from seeing reality accurately, not just issues of race or gender.
• Erin Devers describes a "cute" experiment where giving compliments—even insincerely—boosts happiness for both giver and receiver.
• People underestimate how enjoyable giving and receiving compliments will be, which shows a bias against social engagement.
• Erin Devers highlights that everyone has biases, and recognizing them is foundational to personal and spiritual growth.
• People have a "bias blind spot," making it much easier to see others' biases than their own.
• Erin Devers emphasizes Jesus’ teaching about removing the plank from one’s own eye as a reference to addressing personal bias.
• Self-esteem plays a major role in bias, as people spin stories to feel good about themselves, sometimes at the expense of accuracy.
• Attempts to feel right and to feel good about oneself are two core sources of bias in human thinking.
• Markus Watson connects the discussion to everyday church life, pointing out how bias impacts how pastors perceive congregants.
• Erin Devers explains that a secure identity as a child of God and sinner saved by grace allows Christians to pursue accuracy rather than always needing to be right.
• Rooting identity in something secure—whether faith-based or intrinsic human value—helps people approach disagreement with less defensiveness.
• Broadening perspective, such as considering larger life questions or relational values, helps reduce bias in emotionally charged situations.
• Erin Devers discusses the difference between fast thinking (quick, automatic judgments) and slow thinking (deliberate, reflective thought) and how both relate to bias.
• Habit formation and intentional practices like reducing social media can create space for deeper connection, reflection, and less biased engagement within communities.
• Markus Watson addresses how pastors identify which congregants will support or resist change, revealing how bias shapes leadership decisions.
• Erin Devers encourages church leaders to acknowledge the collective bias toward doing what is easiest when leading change, while grounding stability in God’s presence.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Erin Devers, Indiana Wesleyan University
• Books mentioned:
  • The Unbiased Self, by Erin Devers
• Related episodes:
  • 252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai Auman

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Learn how small, daring experiments from the edges can spark meaningful change in your church—without sending everyone into panic mode.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Raymond Chang in Ep. 164, Building a Future-Focused Church.

"We recommend that people consider additional, and smaller experiments from the edges that are likely to move the congregation in the direction that it needs to go without being too disruptive."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Leaders move congregations forward by initiating small experiments rather than launching large, disruptive initiatives.
• Congregations learn and adapt best when leaders guide them through a series of modest, incremental changes.
• Leaders invite trust and participation when they approach change as co-learners rather than as experts.
• Experimenting at the margins allows churches to discover real community needs before making significant shifts.
• Genuine experiments help congregations clarify their direction by focusing on questions and learning rather than predetermined outcomes.

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What do you do when the tried-and-true ways of doing church just aren’t working anymore? When everything you once relied on—Sunday services, eye-catching signage, the best coffee in the foyer—still leaves your church feeling disconnected from your community?

In this episode, Shannon Kiser, author of Opening Space: A Vision for Fresh Expressions of Church and Creative Mission, shares about what “fresh expressions” of church means, why the old attractional models are no longer enough, and how ministry leaders can begin to reimagine church for a spiritually curious but institutionally wary world.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson shares statistics that reveal most American churches are plateaued or declining, and the majority of major denominations are aging.
• Shannon Kiser urges church leaders to rethink how they engage with a spiritually curious culture that may be wary of traditional church settings.
• Many people possess spiritual curiosity even if they are hesitant or unwilling to attend church gatherings.
• Markus Watson describes how even the physical space of a church building can feel intimidating and unfamiliar to outsiders.
• Shannon Kiser explains that Fresh Expressions seeks to equip leaders to start new forms of Christian community tailored to their local context.
• Fresh Expressions focuses on innovative gatherings—like dinner churches, hiking groups, or park meetups—rather than just worship services.
• Markus Watson asks Shannon Kiser to define Fresh Expressions and how they originated from creative responses to declining church attendance in the UK.
• Shannon Kiser describes Fresh Expressions as new forms of church that often look very different from traditional Sunday morning gatherings.
• Healthy churches should diversify their ministry approaches and embrace what Shannon Kiser calls a "blended ecology."
• Focusing solely on Sunday attendance and budgets is unlikely to reverse church decline.
• Markus Watson highlights the impact stories from the church’s outreach—such as coffee shops and lunch ministries—can have on the congregation’s spiritual vitality.
• Congregations can raise their spiritual temperature and feel more alive by engaging in mission outside their traditional gatherings.
• Shannon Kiser recommends listening to the community and beginning with simple, small experiments that fit the church’s context and resources.
• Forming Fresh Expressions requires different types of people: pioneers who connect and lead, permission givers who open doors, and supporters who help behind the scenes.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Fresh Expressions website
• Books mentioned:
  • Opening Space, by Shannon Kiser
• Related episodes:
  • 177. Exploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon Kiser
  • 264. Building a Future-Focused church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang
  • 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden

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Learn how real transformation in leadership begins when we shift our focus from what’s happening to us to what’s happening within us.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Ep. 262, Fro Fired to Flourishing.

“I had to turn my attention from what happened to me to what was happening within me."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Change leaders cultivate self-awareness by focusing on their internal responses rather than solely external circumstances.
• Transformative leadership requires individuals to process their own emotional reactions before leading others through change.
• Leaders grow when they move beyond blaming external events and explore what pain reveals about their deeper character.
• Navigating difficult transitions means finding growth by going through challenges, not simply avoiding or getting over them.
• Lasting change in ministry or leadership begins when individuals reflect on and learn from their personal setbacks.

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