Is the church still relevant in a post-Christendom world? Kurt Fredrickson returns to Spiritual Life and Leadership to talk about his new book, Compelled, and to make the case that the local church, done right, is still "a small working model of the kingdom of God." Markus Watson and Fredrickson talk about why so many congregations operate like machines built to produce bigger Sundays, and what it would take to tend them like gardens instead.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• The church is still relevant because it functions as a small working model of the kingdom of God.
• Eugene Peterson's definition: the church is "named people in particular places who practice a life of resurrection."
• Why the church of the 1950s can't simply be repeated in a post-Christendom, polarized culture.
• The garden-versus-machine metaphor on the cover of Compelled, and what it means to disrupt a congregation's system instead of engineering it.
• Deprofessionalizing the clergy: the provocative claim that professional clergy can become "the greatest impediment to the work of the church."
• Releasing the five-fold gifts of Ephesians so ministry isn't bottlenecked in the pastor's office.
• The isolation-plus-depletion-plus-conflict formula for how pastors get in trouble, and the ABCs (Abide, Breathe, Connect) for staying healthy.
• Kurt Fredrickson's own journey from twenty-four years pastoring a booming, machine-like congregation to asking, "would our community even miss us?"
• A story about a congregation that moved communion to the center of the room during a season of painful conflict.
• Why hospitality and the Lord's Table are the two disciplines Fredrickson considers essential for a missional community.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Kurt Fredrickson:
  • Faculty bio
• Books mentioned:
  • Compelled: Nurturing Local Missional Communities, by Kurt Fredrickson
  • The Pastor as Gardener: A Renewed Vision for Ministry, by Matthew Erickson and Winn Collier
  • The Pastor as Midwife: Life-Giving Leadership for the Healing of the Church, by Shawna Songer Gaines
  • The Patient Ferment of the Early Church, by Alan Kreider
• Related episodes:
  • 103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee
  • 313. Embodied Spirituality for Pastors and Leaders, with Mark Scandrette and Dave Kludt
  • 314. Why Good Leaders Sometimes Make Their Churches Worse, with JR Woodward

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Are your congregants' jobs a distraction from their discipleship, or one of the main places it actually happens? Matt Rusten, president of Made to Flourish and editor-in-chief of Common Good Magazine, joins Markus to explore the theology of work and what it looks like for pastors and churches to help their people see their everyday jobs as spiritually significant.

This Episode's Highlights Include:

• Why the Bible introduces God as a maker before it describes him as holy or merciful
• What it means that every person in your pews has a "sphere of dominion" in their work
• How work forms your congregation over time, and how it can quietly deform them
• Why Jesus used work as the backdrop for most of his parables
• Why John the Baptist sent tax collectors and soldiers back into their same jobs
• Practical ways your church can help people connect faith and work: small groups, "This Time Tomorrow" interviews, and pastoral workplace visits

Relevant Resources and Links:

• Pastoring for Monday by Matt Rusten
• Made to Flourish

RELATED EPISODES:

• 288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen
• 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden
• 247. The Kingdom of God as Present Reality

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Angela Weszely is the founder and CEO of ProGrace and the author of Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice. Twenty-one years ago she took a job at a Christian pregnancy center in Chicago and immediately felt the tension between what the organization said it believed and how it actually treated women. That tension became a decade-long journey that led her to found ProGrace. In this conversation, Angela and Markus explore what it looks like for the church to actually resemble Jesus in how it responds to abortion and unintended pregnancy.

This Episode's Highlights Include:

• Angela's journey from a legalistic upbringing into leading a Christian pregnancy organization
• The four theological frameworks Christians get wrong about abortion: equal value and dignity, political identity over Christian identity, grace, and shared responsibility
• Why only 7% of women, and 16% of church-going women, ever approach a church before an abortion decision
• The narrative that shames women and lets partners off the hook
• What the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8 actually reveals about grace and systemic injustice
• What it means to be the beloved, and why that identity changes how we respond to people in crisis
• The objectification hiding inside the abortion debate

Relevant Resources and Links:

• Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice, by Angela Weszely
• ProGrace

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JR Woodward is the National Director of the V3 Movement, a faculty member in the Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller Theological Seminary, and the author of The Scandal of Leadership: Unmasking the Powers of Domination in the Church. In this conversation, JR and Markus explore what it looks like to lead communities that bring the Kingdom of God to life in the places where we live.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• What it means that Jesus's primary message was the kingdom of God, and how that shapes everything a church does
• Shalom as a holistic picture of human flourishing: restored relationships with God, others, creation, and ourselves
• The NEAR framework for understanding a neighborhood: Narrative, Ethics, Associations, Rituals
• The four spaces of belonging and how Jesus inhabited all four: intimate (3–4), personal (5–12), social (20–50), public (70+)
• Why closed discipleship groups differ from open missional spaces, and why you can't build depth if the door is always open
• How people often belong before they believe, and how behavior changes before beliefs do
• How our desires are shaped by whoever we look up to, and how this creates rivalry and division in churches
• How conflict in a congregation can escalate until one person becomes the target
• What Philippians 2 teaches about giving up honor and titles as a path to healthier leadership
• How love of image, institutional self-preservation, and ideology become corrupting forces in church life
• Oscar Romero as a real-world example of the downward path of leadership
• V3 Movement's interdenominational church planting training
• The Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller Seminary

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• The Scandal of Leadership, by JR Woodward
• V3 Movement
• Fuller Doctor of Global Leadership Program

RELATED EPISODES:

• 288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen
• 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden
• 247. The Kingdom of God as Present Reality

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Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.

IN THIS CONVERSATION:

• Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what does
• What Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestly
• What Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doing
• Why the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expert
• Moving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next step
• Why discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churches
• How Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quiz
• The "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right now
• Mark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formation

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• markscandrette.com — Mark's website
• reimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organization
• Fuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry program
• Books mentioned:
  • Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette
  • The Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette

RELATED EPISODES:

• The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette
• The Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod Bolsinger
• The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim Wilder

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Jeff Crosby reads about 75 books a year. But in this conversation—his third appearance on the podcast—he's quick to say the number isn't the point. What matters is what reading does to you, including what he calls being "unselfed." Jeff Crosby is a 24-year veteran of InterVarsity Press, current executive with ECPA, and author of World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• jeffreycrosby.net — Jeff's website, including his books and information on his forthcoming book on music
• ECPA — Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, where Jeff serves
• Books mentioned:
  • World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading, by Jeff Crosby
  • Every Moment Holy, Vol. I, by Douglas Kaine McKelvey
  • A Diary of Private Prayer, by John Baillie
  • Reading While Black, by Esau McCaulley
  • The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. Cone
  • Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, by Kenneth E. Bailey
  • Plainsong, by Kent Haruf
  • Eventide, by Kent Haruf
  • Benediction, by Kent Haruf
  • Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis
  • The Ragamuffin Gospel, by Brennan Manning
  • A Touch of Wonder, by Arthur Gordon

RELATED EPISODES:

• Episode 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff Crosby
• Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff Crosby

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Administration is more than paperwork—it’s a spiritual calling. Jana Holiday, author of Taking Good Care: Administration for Christian Formation, explores how stewardship, imagination, and hospitable leadership can transform administration into a ministry of care and Christian formation.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jana Holiday explains that she loves administration because it involves solving problems and collaborating to move people, resources, and projects toward fulfilling a mission.
• Administration centers on stewardship—taking good care of people, resources, and projects.
• Jana Holiday connects the idea of stewardship to Genesis 1, positioning it as an expression of imago Dei and a pursuit of good work and good results.
• Effective administration requires reflection, intentionality, and love.
• Jana Holiday cautions against letting the pursuit of productivity override empathy and care in leadership.
• Administration works best when it is open-handed and welcoming, rather than controlling and restrictive.
• Administrators must choose between stewardship—an open invitation—and dominion, which relies on control.
• Jana Holiday warns that exercising dominion in administration risks missing out on the collective wisdom and creativity of a group.
• Administrative work is not unspiritual; all good work—including administration—can be ministry and part of Christian formation.
• Jana Holiday introduces three categories related to work: jobs, callings, and invitations, suggesting that many administrative roles may function as invitations from God more than callings.
• Approaching administrative work as an invitation can lead to a more purposeful and responsive engagement with people and resources.
• Markus Watson and Jana Holiday discuss the importance of boundaries for administrators and the need for leaders to help protect staff from being overloaded by excessive demands.
• Over-functioning and under-functioning both erode trust in organizational settings.
• Jana Holiday suggests administrators regularly audit their responsibilities and seek feedback from colleagues to maintain a healthy balance in their roles.
• Hospitable administration involves creating belonging and valuing people as part of stewardship, not just completing tasks.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
• IDEO (Design & Innovation Firm)
• Books mentioned:
  • Taking Good Care, by Jana Holliday
  • Designing Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
  • Designing Your Work Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
  • The Art of Innovation, by Tom Kelley

RELATED EPISODE'S:

• Healing Workplace Wounds, with Meryl Herr
• Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership, with Mike Bonem
• Pursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas Pearce

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What happens when you visit 33 different churches in a year? Richard Riccardi, author of The Wandering Worshipper, shares his journey of exploring worship spaces, the surprising power of radical hospitality, and how authentic community can transform even the most unexpected visitor.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Richard Riccardi describes walking into 33 places of worship and discovering that churches are gardeners of fruitful communities.
• Churches serve as places where everyone can belong, and everyone needs a place to belong.
• Richard Riccardi intentionally attended a wide variety of worship services, including Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Baha’i gatherings.
• A welcoming environment across different places of worship made a strong positive impression, regardless of faith tradition.
• Richard Riccardi recounts a rare instance where a welcome felt too aggressive, serving as a caution about coming on too strong with visitors.
• Church members often believe their enthusiastic friendliness is always positive, but it can sometimes overwhelm newcomers.
• Experiences of deep hospitality and acceptance can transcend racial, cultural, and religious boundaries.
• Richard Riccardi explains that styles of worship that encourage relationship and participation engaged him more than rigid, predictable rituals.
• A diversity of approaches is needed in church messaging and environment to reach both newcomers and longtime members.
• Markus Watson and Richard Riccardi discuss the importance of “sacred listening” and tailoring responses to visitors’ backgrounds and spiritual needs.
• Being sensitive about criticizing other faiths or denominations can foster genuine community and dialogue.
• Authentic community in churches is demonstrated when people support each other in times of need, as seen in the care Richard Riccardi’s mother received near the end of her life.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINK:

• Richard Riccardi
  • Website - https://thewanderingworshiper.com/
• Books mentioned:
  • The Wandering Worshipper, by Richard Riccardi
  • Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
• Related episodes:
  • 167. Called to Each Other
  • 218. Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership
  • 222. Building a Multi-Inclusive Church

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